Post Office Inquiry latest: Paula Vennells told she is talking 'absolute rubbish' after breaking down in tears (2024)

Sky News business correspondent Paul Kelso said that today was the opportunity for the lawyers and the barristers acting for the sub-postmasters to ask the questions that they have been wanting to put to Paula Vennells for years.

"She was in the stand for three hours this morning, and it was pretty bruising," Kelso said.

"This was an opportunity for Paula Vennells to explain herself, and it was put to her that she has been self-serving and acting in her own interests.

"She was told her witness statement, more than 750 pages, was there to construct her case rather than honestly own up to her failings."

He added that she was questioned closely about a period in 2013 when she became aware of the inescapable fact of this case, that the horizon system was flawed.

"We had the remarkable admission that she had actually taken the Horizon system out of the prospectus at the time of the floatation of Royal Mail Group. She says that was innocent, it was just not relevant to put in that document," Kelso said

"There is a danger that could have misled shareholders, and there is a full email trail showing how she acted.

"That's not always the case here, very often her defence has been that although information was known within the Post Office, she didn't know about it, others knew and didn't pass it on.

"'Too trusting' was the description of herself on the opening day, whether that is true or not the inquiry will have to decide," Kelso added.

As Ms Vennells left the building, she declined to answer any questions from the press.

The inquiry has concluded its questioning of former Post Office boss Paula Vennells.

Ms Vennells was at the helm of the Post Office between 2012 and 2019, and has faced heavy criticism for her handling of the Horizon scandal.

She became teary during today's questioning after being told she had "failed" in her role.

"You failed to get into this, on your account. You failed to ask the right questions. You couldn't be bothered, could you, Ms Vennells? The risk was too great," lawyer Sam Stein KC told her.

Ms Vennells said she "loved the Post Office" in response, but was heckled by someone in the public gallery and broke down in tears.

There were also audible scoffs as an email was read out from Ms Vennells, where she said a wrongly convicted former sub-postmistress "lacked passion and admitted to false accounting on TV".

Another email was shown where Ms Vennells told board chair Alice Perkins she had earned her keep.

The inquiry had just heard that Ms Vennells removed a line from a Royal Mail prospectus about the Post Office's IT system.

Jo Hamilton has said she doubts the sincerity of Paula Vennells's apology to her this afternoon.

The former Post Office boss apologised directly to Ms Hamilton after the inquiry was shown an email in which she said the sub-postmistress "lacked passion and admitted false accounting on TV".

After the hearing, Ms Hamilton said: "I accept anyone's apology but whether she means it or not is another matter. I'm not sure."

Ms Hamilton is a wrongly convicted former sub-postmistress who was prosecuted for a shortfall of £36,000 in 2006.

Asked if it meant something to hear Ms Vennells apologise, she said: "Not really, no. I think people only say sorry, well some people say sorry and mean it, but I don't know whether it was meant or not.

"I'm in two minds as to whether it was genuine or that she was so publicly ashamed."

Keith Bell is one of the hundreds of wrongly convicted sub-postmasters.

He spent more than 20 years believing he was at fault for the shortfalls which occurred at his branch in Stockton-on-Tees.

He believed he was to blame and ended up admitting to a charge of false accounting over a shortfall of £3,000 in 2002 and was handed a sentence of 200 hours' community service.

During the break, he spoke to Sky News about the trouble he faced.

He said he couldn't understand it at the time, and then he realised that the shortfalls were not his fault.

He has been listening in to Paula Vennells's evidence to the inquiry, and said he was "disappointed" by her responses.

"She's had the opportunity to truthfully answer the questions. The facts were there, she can't deny them," he added.

"It was her job to understand and to act on the facts and not go down the route she decided to take."

He said those affected wouldn't have reached where they are today without the work of Alan Bates and the support of the public.

After seeing the Mr Bates vs The Post Office TV series, Mr Bell said he "couldn't not get involved".

"It was compelling. I had to do something about it," he added.

"It's just been a huge part of what my life has been about."

That's it for Paula Vennells's testimony.

The former Post Office boss has been taking questions for three days, at times becoming emotional.

She repeatedly said she couldn't recall details over the days of questioning.

There are audible scoffs from the audience as lawyer Tim Maloney reads out an email sent by Paula Vennells in 2014.

She sent it to several Post Office officials, and included a jab at Jo Hamilton - a wrongly convicted former sub-postmaster who was prosecuted for a shortfall of £36,000 in 2006.

"Jo Hamilton lacked passion and admitted to false accounting on TV," the email reads.

You can read it in full below...

"I regret everything I said," Ms Vennells tells the inquiry.

Addressing Ms Hamilton, she adds: "I am deeply sorry that I was so rude to you in that email."

Mr Maloney suggests her remarks in the email were "triumphalist".

"Oh I completely agree, I completely agree," Ms Vennells replies.

"I have no excuse for what I wrote."

Mr Maloney asks her: "Did the mask slip in this email Ms Vennells?"

"I made a mistake in this email," she replies.

The inquiry is now shown an extract of a statement from the Post Office's former communications director Mark Davies.

"Damaging publicity" about the Post Office had begun emerging in 2014, lawyer Tim Maloney says.

In a live radio interview with the BBC's Today programme, Mr Davies had said the sub-postmasters - some of whom had been jailed - were facing "lifestyle difficulties".

He said in his statement his wording was "clumsy and unintended" but his intention was to show the Post Office was "sorry genuinely that people had faced challenges in their lives" but that it wasn't necessarily responsible.

Asked about the incident, Paula Vennells says she remembers listening to and thinking "oh Mark".

She says she doesn't think Mr Davies intended those words to be used.

Mr Maloney points out that at the time of the interview, a 47-year-old mother-of-two had served 18 months in prison, while another sub-postmaster spent his 60th birthday behind bars.

The lawyer says these people were "subject to public censure and humilitation".

"You've had a taste of that, haven't you, in recent times? And it's not very nice, is it?" he says.

The inquiry is being shown a document entitled "Paula Vennells: Review of achievements against 2013/14 personal achievements".

One of the sections of the document is about her key achievements related to external relationships.

You can see it below...

Lawyer Tim Maloney picks out the highlighted section above specifically, which refers to Ms Vennells's work to remove a section about the Horizon IT system from the Royal Mail prospectus in 2013.

"Although it is something you can't remember, it was a key achievement for you in that year," Mr Maloney puts to her.

"You were proud that you had intervened to change the prospectus wording."

She replies by saying that in "hindsight" she realised removing its mention was the "wrong conclusion because there were issues with the system".

Mr Maloney explains that concerns about the Post Office IT system were listed under the "risk section" of the prospectus.

"It was in the risk section… and that was why it had to go, wasn't it? Because that was very damaging to Post Office?" he says.

Ms Vennells replies: "It would have been, and as I explained this morning, it would have been wrong for that to have been taken and misrepresented in some way, because at this time, the Post Office believed that the Horizon system was working."

After a lunch break, Tim Maloney is next to question Paula Vennells.

He's showing the inquiry emails from Ms Vennells from 2011.

In this email, sent in October, Ms Vennells accidentally sends an email to Mike Young - which has a subject line of "legally privileged and confidential" - instead of former chief information officer Lesley Sewell.

Mr Maloney says Ms Vennells then "rewinds" in her next email.

"Did you rewind in that way because Mike Young wouldn't take that sort of aggressive arguably domineering tone from you?" asks Mr Maloney.

"No, I don't think so," Ms Vennells says.

The lawyer presses: "And was it a case of you having, as it were, let the mask slip with that particular email?"

"No," she replies.